Curse

Jeydra · Oct 21, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

What're the best options?

Warrior - yeah melee. AI doesn't know how to play melee. No.

Assassin - mostly melee. I can't see any reason to use A/R or A/P instead of Rangers and Paragons. No.

Derv - mostly melee. Some PBAoE nukes, which I don't think the AI knows how to use (never tried though), and besides they're affected by armour. D/P's etc are similarly inferior to P/whatever. Can't see any reason to use them.

Rit - spirit spammers are clearly the best caster damage right now, but you can only have one of each spirit and also only 2 Rits.

Nec - minion bombers deal lots of damage, but you can only run one of them. I don't know about everything else. SS does some damage, but apparently heroes only casts it on targets you're focusing, which greatly decreases its damage output. The rest of the Curses line suffers from low damage, unless via force amplification (MoP, Barbs), which needs something to trigger it in the first place. Death Magic would be great if it had more effective skills for damage, but it doesn't. There's Discord, Rising Bile, Putrid Bile, and ... out of options. A lot of the Death Magic damage skills are affected by armour as well, or aren't AoE. Finally there's Blood, which doesn't really do damage.

Mes - Dom Mes might be able to deal some damage. The damage doesn't come in large packets however (79 damage Spiritual Pain @ 16 spec, which is way inferior to 140-damage Lightning Orb @ 16 spec). Major draw I guess would be that the skills recharge quickly thanks to Fast Casting, and you cast them faster as well. Right now I imagine the best elite is probably Energy Surge.

Ele - Air is probably the best element choice. Something around Invoke Lightning + Chain Lightning + Lightning Orb + Shell Shock, probably.

Monk - don't deal damage. Comparatively little anyway.

Paragon - also don't deal damage, unless it's by proxy (Splinter Weapon from Rits).

Ranger - I don't know about this one, maybe someone with more experience with Rangers in PvE can tell me. Do a few pet attacks + some kind of AoE bow attack deal enough to match the other options? What about other weapon choices? Is it worth dedicating Splinter Weapons and MoP's and Strength of Honours for the pet?

Clearly nothing is going to match the Rits and MMs, but what's the next best option?

EDIT: I mean as a whole - so it's not Rangers competing with other Ranger builds, but Rangers competing with the best that Necros, Mesmers, Eles, etc can do.

loopysnoopy · Oct 21, 2010, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Lets make thing's simple shall we stay away from pvx that wont help read wiki
for the mission etc.

then create a build which suits that mission or an area which you want to farm.

Be creative DON'T be a sheep and follow the rest.

I am one of those people that hate discord and hates all build mostly from PVX

Its a game have fun if you fail try try again

Btw try and use an orders dervish and er proter with a healer and add wot ever henches u fancy.

distilledwill · Oct 21, 2010, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Monks - RoJ? Probably the best damage a monk can do - combined with the Smite "x" spells and you've got some decent damage + utility.

Mes - you are right about the Dom being the best damage IMO. But combine Panic (not a damage dealing skill on its own) with the Wastrel Spells (Worry and Demise) which trigger more damage if the enemy is unable to activate skills - then you get a decent amount of damage out of them. Plus they recharge incredibly quickly for such damaging spells (even faster with PvE Fast Casting). Plus, again, utility is good.

War, Assassin, Dervish - yes, you are right. Pretty poop as they are melee.

Ranger - with 7 heroes coming in at some point, I'm thinking Barrage/Pet might come back (Especially with SoS with Splinter being popular). I dont think a pure pet build would be much use, as they have the same problems as the melee heroes.

Paragon - can do some decent damage. They a similar DPS to warriors if specced correctly and will stay in position as they are ranged so a player using Ebon V Standard of Honour will get quite a lot of benefit from them.

Necro, Rits - yes all true, Death Magic is the way to go with the Nec and SoS is pretty much the balls.

mage767 · Oct 21, 2010, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Customize your heroes based on the following points:

1. Your profession: If melee, bring badass buffs for yourself, so you enjoy doing lots of crazy damage. Spec your heroes to take care of you, i.e. add those skills on heroes that you allow you to tank properly. Don't make me babysit you which these skills are. If you bring survival skill on your bar like the following abysmal ones: Defy pain, endure pain, then you are obviously not utilizing your war to full potential. The same goes for dervish with the abysmal forms (but some forms like Balthazar do have some uses...)

If caster, it is highly unlikely you will do crazy damage like a melee, but some casters can still do significant damage by going X/A and bringing Assassin's promise as elite, pretty much spamming sins+FH+PI or YMLD. Anyway, spec heroes (with whatever class you prefer) to do both damage and utility. Definitely bring a SoS hero or ST rit hero to absorb enemy damage/blocking. Melee heroes are just too dumb...unless you use sins who are properly protected and buffed.

If you are a para/ranger, aka midline, you got several options. I personally prefer buffed physicals and generally bring 1-2 other paragons/rangers + pets (for damage absorption) all nicely buffed with a MM nec w/splinter or a orders necro + barbs + MoP necro (for giggles).

If you can't think of anything ...in general, use discordway heroes as a caster, and sabway heroes as a physical. You won't be running an optimal build tailored for your main or to the area/mission you are playing, but at least you won't suck balls like a total newbie. Once you find out a build isn't working for your heroes, it's time to change them. Discord/sabway is good for starters and generally works in most areas, but neither is a complete hero solution. You have 20+ heroes of various professions, experiment and learn.

2. Enemy type: If most enemies leave corpses behind, then bring MM heroes. Against elementals, use armor ignoring spirit damage (i.e. just use spirits) and spirit protection. Against undead, always try to spec more in holy damage (bring judge's insight support for your war). Shield of judgement smite monk heros rape undead, SoO included NM or HM. Against the newer War in kryta or the stone summit slavers balanced enemy teams, bring a balanced hero team which uses corpses, spirits, as well as a panic mesmer. Chipping in a frozen soil on the mesmer isn't a bad idea to prevent those annoying resses. Go in, nuke their shit with your main and end the fight in seconds. That's how pros do it.

Tripolityx · Oct 21, 2010, 12:49 PM // 12:49

I agreed AND disagreed on many of your opinions. There isn't really much for me to say on this post than it really cleared my own vision of using my heroes now. I would like to thank you for that =P

awry · Oct 21, 2010, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What're the best options?

Warrior - yeah melee. AI doesn't know how to play melee. No.

Assassin - mostly melee. I can't see any reason to use A/R or A/P instead of Rangers and Paragons. No.

Derv - mostly melee. Some PBAoE nukes, which I don't think the AI knows how to use (never tried though), and besides they're affected by armour. D/P's etc are similarly inferior to P/whatever. Can't see any reason to use them.

Ranger - I don't know about this one, maybe someone with more experience with Rangers in PvE can tell me. Do a few pet attacks + some kind of AoE bow attack deal enough to match the other options? What about other weapon choices? Is it worth dedicating Splinter Weapons and MoP's and Strength of Honours for the pet?

Clearly nothing is going to match the Rits and MMs, but what's the next best option?

Well as someone who has tried to integrate every hero for some particular team usage, I would argue against the claim that melee is useless and monks do little damage, especially in tandem with monk and soh.

One of the teams i ran was a/r, a/r, mo(smiter). The sins used pets and spirits from the ranger line, (symbiosis, frozen soil, whatever fit the specialized need) and the mo was to upkeep enchantments in the back. When you configure your team to be enchant heavy, you maintain great survivability while dealing amazing dps on targets, really the only bottleneck to damage is the sin's movement speed from target to target. Test it on master of damage, the damage output is considerable even from auto attack. The only trouble is that currently the sins are slow to use dual attacks and kill opponents before they can use it, or they would be even quicker. This is a specialized team for special scenarios, but is hardly useless.

I actually use ranger in tandem with elementalists. Not as outright damage, but as r/n, stance tank +bip/toucher. It's versatile, more versatile than a nec primary bip anyhow and it lets my eles spam expensive aoe damage spells (searing flames, Meteor shower). Tested my ranger in eotn vanquish at drakkar, my human party members(all casters) seemed to appreciate the support very much(as a necro i'm already fine with energy management lol)

I tried to give dervs a chance. But I got nothing here.

I don't believe that rits and mms are the undisputed "best". As with everything it depends on party synergy. Discord is usually stuck into parties with no regard for synergy or the location (no fleshy). As someone who's been proph only for a long time,I feel that people do not appreciate the potential behind the many "common" skills that are given to them.

Luminarus · Oct 21, 2010, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Best hero damage builds:

Me and a mate just rolled through the entire pve game NM without even paying attention with the following builds:

1x RoJ Monk, 1x UA monk, SoS rit, SoGM rit (necro primary for emanagement, also had order of pain coz we were both using physicals), Minion Bomber, PI Mesmer. With stuff held in place on the minion wall, kd'd from the PI and getting blown apart by RoJ we steamrolled it. In terms of damage, the classes I wouldnt bother with are physical heroes, and eles. Some of the mesmer skills can do quite nice damage, and shutdown. CoF is awesome now, chaos storm isnt that awesome, but it does add up to decent aoe damage. Necros like always are gods. Spirits are OP. RoJ is the best nuke in the game, i dare anyone to disagree.

So yeah hope this helps.

EDIT: as a caster, running 2 barrage heroes, or volley heroes can be allright if you put great dwarf weapon on them. AoE KD never goes astray.

onerabbit · Oct 21, 2010, 05:16 PM // 17:16

i run to Mm bombers now, and Tbh most times they both have over 5 minions, and its brilliant when they both have ten, i think its worth it, i use discord mm with some resto

so il most probably keep 2 mm when we get 7 heroes

Xenomortis · Oct 21, 2010, 05:31 PM // 17:31

After the Rits and Nec MM, it's a little desolate.
If you're a physical and don't mind micro, then a Curses Nec can put out a lot of damage with Mark of Pain and still have space for good utility stuff.
Eles can either run Invoke/Chain Air builds (you could cut Invoke for BSurge but I don't think that's worth the damage loss) or some sort of Fire build. Dual Attunements with stuff like Rodgort's works ok, or just stick to Searing Flames spam.
Earth is alright, but Fire is better for raw damage.
An Esurge Dom Mesmer has potential - it's a fair bit of damage for one skill and it's recharge is reduced by FC. The template can also include a fair amount of disruption (and stuff like Mistrust packs nice damage too).

All these builds do though is take what we have for henchmen and just improve their builds without changing anything fundamentally. Still, that's not a bad start.

Jeydra · Oct 22, 2010, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

Ranger - with 7 heroes coming in at some point, I'm thinking Barrage/Pet might come back (Especially with SoS with Splinter being popular). I dont think a pure pet build would be much use, as they have the same problems as the melee heroes.

That's what I was thinking of - a few Bow attacks, Lightning Reflexes and then some pet stuff. There aren't that many good Bow attacks anyway. Or maybe even just sticking Comfort Animal on the bar. Melandru's Assault looks like a good attack however, and I wonder if it's worth sticking lots of points into Beast Mastery.

@awry - I've actually found the BiP (well, Necro henchmen with Blood Ritual) rather weak. They tended to use Blood Ritual on people who didn't need it - namely, me, because I'm generally just waiting for Assassin's Promise to trigger and I'd be fine. BiP would be even worse since it uses up the elite slot. As for melee heroes, I've had bad experiences with them in general. They tended to overaggro as well as run back and forth too much. In fact, if I remember right, they run around when I kite damage, or when I tab through the mob. I might give them a try again after the 7-hero update.

@onerabbit - I think that's actually a good idea. A second MM would be able to throw Death Novas and Blood of the Masters as well. I probably wouldn't give him too many Animate spells, but there are enough good Death Magic spells to go along. He could also be the Prot-carrying hero. Something like:

16 Death Magic
11 Soul Reaping
8 Protection Prayers

Discord
Putrid Bile
Rising Bile
Death Nova
Masochism
Aegis
Protective Spirit
Blood of the Master / Rend Enchantments / Animate Shambling Horror

Hm, maybe. Thanks for the idea.

Daesu · Oct 22, 2010, 03:22 PM // 15:22

There are many good points in this thread.

- For rits, usual spiritway channeling and communing rits with SoGM and Painful bond.
- For necros, Fiends + MoP. If you micro MoP casting, and can direct your fiends to attack a particular enemy, this makes good damage.
- For monks, RoJ brings good damage if you have good crowd control.
- For Eles, Savannah Heat brings good damage, but again, crowd control.
- For rangers, Incendiary arrow and ignite arrows deal good damage especially with Splinter. Not sure how well ranger heroes use them though.

Jeydra · Oct 24, 2010, 11:24 AM // 11:24

@Daesu - I'll give the Incendiary Arrows Ranger a try probably ... eventually.

Anyone with experience either with hero Mesmers or player Mesmers can tell me:

1. Is Aneurysm worth bringing in PvE? I'm guessing that it is because given the rate PvE monsters use energy it shouldn't be that long before they burn 30 energy and you can hit them for 100 damage (5s cooldown too!). However ... not going to be effective on Warriors / Rangers etc. Does the AI cheat enough / is it smart enough to use Aneurysm only on those who are vulnerable to it?
2. Is Backfire worth bringing in PvE? What about Empathy? Chaos Storm?
3. Does Overload + Shatter Delusions work?
4. Is it possible to get Wastrel's Worry to trigger often in PvE? What about Wastrel's Demise, how many points of damage does that stack? How much do Panic-supported Wastrel's spells do? I'm guessing this is area-dependent because you can't stop stances, shouts etc from activating with interrupts / KDs / Panic etc, but assuming the area has none of these, how much do the Wastrel's spells do?
5. Does the AI use Shatter Hex for damage, or for hex removal? According to Cebe's guide to using heroes here on this forum, it's for damage - anyone confirm (that guide is so old ...)?
6. Are there any other competitive options to straight-out Domination Magic for damage? Maybe something based on Fevered Dreams, Ineptitude (I doubt this one) or Keystone Signet?

In other words, if I care nothing about defense / utility / interrupts etc, and if I cannot use PvE skills, which Mesmer bar has the highest damage output?

Chthon · Oct 24, 2010, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

1. Is Aneurysm worth bringing in PvE? I'm guessing that it is because given the rate PvE monsters use energy it shouldn't be that long before they burn 30 energy and you can hit them for 100 damage (5s cooldown too!). However ... not going to be effective on Warriors / Rangers etc. Does the AI cheat enough / is it smart enough to use Aneurysm only on those who are vulnerable to it?

A. You pretty much have to drain them to get good results out of Aneurysm.

B. W, D, A, R, P, and N are all pretty much impossible to get good damage on.

C. Not sure on how the AI uses this skill.

Quote:

2. Is Backfire worth bringing in PvE? What about Empathy? Chaos Storm?

A. Backfire and Empathy are reactive hexes that aren't worth bringing in general. The fact that we're talking about a hero doesn't improve the case for them.

B. In fact it makes it worse because the hero will put them on your current target, almost guaranteeing the hex doesn't stick around long.

C. Chaos Storm does a pretty fair amount of armor-ignoring damage now, and the monster AI is slow to move out of it. Not sure if it's worth it on a hero bar given the recharge though. (Player can AP it to avoid the recharge.)

Quote:

3. Does Overload + Shatter Delusions work?

It does, but I'm not sure if the hero AI gets it.

Quote:

4. Is it possible to get Wastrel's Worry to trigger often in PvE? What about Wastrel's Demise, how many points of damage does that stack? How much do Panic-supported Wastrel's spells do? I'm guessing this is area-dependent because you can't stop stances, shouts etc from activating with interrupts / KDs / Panic etc, but assuming the area has none of these, how much do the Wastrel's spells do?

A. It does a ton of damage.

B. It's hard to make it go off reliably without really camping the target with interrupts/KD. Panic, dazed, and Arcane Conundrum help too.

C. Anything with attack skills is going to prove hard to score damage on.

Quote:

5. Does the AI use Shatter Hex for damage, or for hex removal? According to Cebe's guide to using heroes here on this forum, it's for damage - anyone confirm (that guide is so old ...)?

Dunno.

Quote:

6. Are there any other competitive options to straight-out Domination Magic for damage? Maybe something based on Fevered Dreams, Ineptitude (I doubt this one) or Keystone Signet?

A. Fevered Dreams+Frag can do a ton of damage in the hands of a player. But it relies on PvE skills to do it. If you built a team with Frag damage in mind, it might work with a hero. Same for EC.

B. I've never tried, but I'd imagine the AI can get Keystone right.

Jeydra · Oct 31, 2010, 06:47 AM // 06:47

I tried the Panic + Wastrel's bar; it didn't work out too well. The hero was very happy to cast Panic on a single target, making it such that Panic didn't support Wastrel's damage on anyone else. If the Mesmer was dealing a lot of damage I didn't notice it. Certainly Wastrel's Demise's DoT barely registered. I'm inclined to reject this as an option for Mesmer damage, unless other people have noticed better results.

P_A_A · Oct 31, 2010, 10:24 AM // 10:24

I'll sometimes run just for fun 3x Icy Veins necros. If you are running a AP Bar, it works pretty well...

FoxBat · Oct 31, 2010, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Wastrels fails to trigger alot even when you panic an entire mob. You either need absurdly large numbers like an elite area, or an absurd number of interrupts. It's not going to trigger much in your average vanq. I'd recommend overload and/or shatter delusions instead as more reliable damage, AI does manage to hit overload even with panic up (although not really spam enough), and panic provides plenty of hex targets to shatter.

Many of the areas have crappy enough henchmen that I'll take a melee henchie or two for damage. In that light splinter weapon or strength of honor can become useful dmg options even when running a caster yourself.

cataphract · Oct 31, 2010, 03:58 PM // 15:58

N/Mo Minion Master #1
[OANDUslfSxMVBKgoBVVba1DBEA]

N/Mo Minion Master #2
[OANDUsldSxMVBoBVVJgbEtEGNA]
(Take Cure Hex instead of Remove Hex, this account doesn't have it unlocked.)

N/Rt Healer
[OAhjUoGYIPxMp5kbYGNb2jzqKA]

Adjust builds by adding res when doing missions. Use the necros with a profession/team that can inflict hexes and conditions. AP+EVAS builds work wonders for casters. Here's one I use on the ele [OgdTgYW6TKcYBCcYXscAZQuMmEA] and the one I use on the necro [OAdTYwD7VaB6TYXsMIm0SQuUAAA]. Use Vocal Minority or enchantment removal instead of Res Sig.

Lourens · Oct 31, 2010, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Its quite obvious... 3 SS necros Micro them... 3 aatxes put SS on each and see them explode ....

Jeydra · Nov 01, 2010, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

N/Mo Minion Master #1
[OANDUslfSxMVBKgoBVVba1DBEA]

N/Mo Minion Master #2
[OANDUsldSxMVBoBVVJgbEtEGNA]
(Take Cure Hex instead of Remove Hex, this account doesn't have it unlocked.)

N/Rt Healer
[OAhjUoGYIPxMp5kbYGNb2jzqKA]

Adjust builds by adding res when doing missions. Use the necros with a profession/team that can inflict hexes and conditions. AP+EVAS builds work wonders for casters. Here's one I use on the ele [OgdTgYW6TKcYBCcYXscAZQuMmEA] and the one I use on the necro [OAdTYwD7VaB6TYXsMIm0SQuUAAA]. Use Vocal Minority or enchantment removal instead of Res Sig.

I wasn't going to post, but responding to this post was too ... tempting.

I do NOT need teambuilds, and I do not need your help in "doing missions". I'm fully capable of beating every area in the game to which you can bring henchmen in HM with henchmen. I'm one of the pioneers of what is currently the most effective H/H teambuild for caster primaries, and I'd even venture saying that I put the final form of that teambuild together. So don't ping me three more-or-less standard Discordway bars and think I'll be impressed, because not only am I well-acquainted with Discordway, Discordway is subpar in PvE.

Also, the day N/Rt healers do the most damage in Guild Wars is the day I quit.

If you don't read the original post and / or are unable to contribute, please don't post.

@Foxbat - I think that's a good idea. It's a bit of a pity that the only large AoE Mesmer hex is Panic, which takes up the elite slot, but that could be a blessing as well since Panic is quite a strong defensive skill. So something like:

16 Domination Magic
10 Fast Casting (= 5s reduction on Panic)
10 Inspiration (the rest)

Panic
Overload
Shatter Delusions
Something (what?)
Mistrust (too powerful to give up, despite negative synergy with Overload)
Drain Enchanment
Power Drain
Leech Signet

Energy looks pretty tough, but I'll give it a try.

distilledwill · Nov 01, 2010, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Foxbat - I think that's a good idea. It's a bit of a pity that the only large AoE Mesmer hex is Panic, which takes up the elite slot, but that could be a blessing as well since Panic is quite a strong defensive skill. So something like:

16 Domination Magic
10 Fast Casting (= 5s reduction on Panic)
10 Inspiration (the rest)

Panic
Overload
Shatter Delusions
Something (what?)
Mistrust (too powerful to give up, despite negative synergy with Overload)
Drain Enchanment
Power Drain
Leech Signet

Energy looks pretty tough, but I'll give it a try.

Just FYI - check here for chat about the most effective Panic builds:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/e...t10456404.html